Following an alcohol fuelled debate last night up the pub with my mates I thought perhaps a better group of people to pose a question to might be on this forum...
I bought a Mk2 Escort RS2000 a few years ago for a bit of a winter project, it was a complete car with only 60k miles and every nut and bolt was there all be it in need of love.
I started taking it apart but soon found that there was rust, albeit not that bad, but in the wrong places like inner wings etc so it ended up being totally taken apart back down to the shell.
Prior to starting with the targas and endurance events in my MGZR I was planning to put it all back to a standard car at which point I would probably sell it (I don't have enough time nor garage space to keep it just for the odd day out) so I have all new old stock wings etc to get it welded back but here is my dillema....
The welding is getting pretty expensive to get it to a "as new" state and I am wondering if I would rather keep it and have some (sideways) fun in it which means the welding can be a little less concourse - The Demon Tweeks catalogue has so many interesting things in it and now I have my race and rally licence I was thinking this is a better option.
What though is a realistic class that it could be built to for me to take part in ? - Targas would need it to be a road car in essence with everything in, Endurance is no good due to 1400cc limit - What else is there that I don't know about. I was wondering how hard / expensive stage rallying is, the Brands Hatch stages looked great fun and a lot easier on the car than the endurance rounds we have done this year.
So I'll throw it out there, any thoughts / suggestions ?
Thanks - Justin
If I had that car I would be tempted to rebuild it to very good condition and sell it for the quite large amount of money decent RS2000s seem to go for.
In terms of competing I would probably look at building it to historic spec so it could do events like the East Anglian Classic as well as Targas, road rallies, 12 cars and even stages although you will never be competitive in the 2 litre class unless you are spending a fortune. I'm no expert but historic spec means keeping a lot of original features like the brakes fairly standard (drums on the back for example) but the car can still be caged, 5 linked, fitted with an LSD etc.
Gavin's yellow Escort is a good example of a club spec Escort which can be competitive at a wide range of events including winning Targas running a 140hp Pinto on a single carb (38DGAS) although it isn't historic eligible due to rear discs, a Quaife box and bigger front brakes etc. Keeping it in road trim simply means retaining rear seat, some carpet and door trims none of which weigh much in an old Escort, you can still have fibreglass bonnet and boot and perspex windows. I would think that spec of Escort could be built for similar money to properly restoring an RS2000.
Quality answers from Derek.
Yes miles of thoughts to be had. Worth talking to Rich Baker ( just built an Escort at some cost but put arches on so cant do Targa's ) and Mike Thomas who did the welding on Rich's car and is in business in Wickford as a welder. They could both be at the 16 Oct clubnight.
Building it up as a clubman historic and Targa car has merit , but so does selling it if lots of £££ to be had.
I like stage rallying and you could do worse than stage the Rover/MG as Class A is not as keenly contested as other classes. Derek Rogers stage and endurance rallied an MG/Rover.
Jim
Justin. I will have subtly different take on this than most everybody else based on recent experience. You'll probably realise quickly that I'm bored and disillusioned with stage rallying, but you won't know that I'm selling out of all of my kit.
My car has been built for 3 years and is unused (I think it has ~300miles on it - none of it competition use). Most of the parts are new. Quite obviously it is very clean and tidy as a result and is logbooked ready to enter a stage rally tomorrow. It has a drysumped 2.0L Honda powertrain which is measured at 192bhp at the wheels, so it's logical to assume that the enigine is making a comfortable 240bhp measured. The engine is standard to date, and still limited to 9000rpm. There are plenty of parts and skills tuning these so it would be realitively straigtforward to stretch the power output if you felt you needed it. The rest of the car is of similar spec, but too numerous to list. My build cost (not including labour) is around the £30K mark and I would be looking for offers very close to that figure. I'll be happy to send a detailed spec sheet to you (or anybody else) if you were interested.
Regards what you could do with yours - my thoughts:
1. Road Rally and Targa. You could do the same as me and put a decent powertrain in it without changing the arches. I wouldn't recomend it though - you are starting with something old and slow and pulling it up 40 years of technology. In reality you may as well start with something much newer, faster and cheaper to replace (should you ding it). Especially if you can sell yours to ffinance it.
2. Stage Rally. This is where the spending really starts. My car is a good example of a potentially competitive 2.0L class car, but the cars you see leading the pack (eg at Brands) are a world away in power and money - thats why they are winning. You need to be thinking about £35K for a millington engine, £15K for an airshift box, £5K for an axle. Another £8 to £10K for the "fitting kit" and then add the labour to cut the car about to make it fit. So around £65K + Labour + your car is a realistic budget to get started. I'm sure Mike would do the welding whereas I'm too busy to get involved at the minute.
3. Historics. I'm no expert, but as a rule of thumb you cannot use any technology that wasn't around at the time they were built. That said unless yours is a mk1 it's probably not old enough anyways. (Serious point - if it's a Mk1 RS2000 restore it!! Worth a fortune - I'd certainly be interestred in a part ex deal.) Back on track - to make a competitive historic you need a BDA engine which will give you ~200bhp depending how wild you go with it. I tried to get one, but they were ~£20K for a good block and head setup plus the gearbox and the same install costs. Historic rallying tens to be slow and regularity too - definately research your subject before you get into this. Theres a great deal of skill in regularity but it bores the pants off of me.
So it's the usual story - how fast can you afford to go? It sounds as though you have a car and a dream. No bad thing, but I'd strongly recomend that you put a budget to the dream before you end up like me - disillusioned with a very expensive car in a garage gathering dust.
Good luck (and I hope you do nto find this too negative).
I compete in a Mk1 Escort 1300E in targas, classic regularity rallies plus 'interesting' sprints and hillclimbs like Brighton and Crystal Palace.
It was built for endurance rallies hence the 1300 and was sold to me as the owner said it was too nice for that type of event. After completing the Preston I know he was right.
The 1300 has less than 100bhp. For the types of event I'm doing, an RS2000 version of my car would be much more suitable/successful.
I'm in my 50s and could never have found cocking about around cones on a targa or special test or miles of 26.5mph challenging even 10 years ago. But now I do and enjoy it.
Providing the events suit, you could keep the car and compete with limited modifications without destroying its value.
I too enjoyed Brands and fancied a go but the cost of stage rallying is eye-watering and well beyond my budget.
Hope this helps.
Kim
As Jim said above, I stage rallied my endurance spec Rover 214 for a while and did manage to be competitive in the 1400cc class. We did 4 events, 4th in class at Honington, 3rd at Woodbridge 2012 so got a trophy, nowhere at Brands and 5th at Woodbridge 2013, generally the amount of retirements meant we were around halfway overall and had a lot of fun.
There are additional costs with stages like overalls, helmet and intercoms but the actual events are £200 to £250 entry fees and if you use secondhand tyres and don't hit anything then probably another £100 on fuel, tyres etc which is considerably less than the 2012 Xpart endurance cost me, the entry fee was less but damage to the car far greater due to the terrain.
Yes, if you want to be winning a single venue then that will be very expensive but a lot of people have a lot of enjoyment without ever expecting to win.
Thanks everyone for talking the trouble to put some really thought provoking replies up here.
I did restore a Mk1 2000 over the course of 10 years and had good fun learning about the parts, the car, the differences and I enjoyed hunting down parts and going to shows and finding that "rare" clip etc but that was 15 years ago. Once I had finished it I sold it within 4 months as it just sat in the garage as i'm not one to store some kind of trophie or prize.
Then came the Mk2 which I planned to be a lot quicker but soon realised it needed just as much work as the Mk1 and my access to a decent welder (I think he retired) has left me with a pile of NOS panels and a big bill ahead to make it solid which is pretty much where I am now, I suppose the added complication is that I now have the MGZR which is great fun so i'm thinking what are the options with the Mk2 given that I now have my licences.
The problem is clear and as everyone has pointed out, what can you do with it? A better targa car (and I enjoy these, they are good club fun) is a modern lighter 2000cc road car (Honda Civic?) which is cheaper if you dent it and having it in road trim is no big deal. The Mk2 would have to be put back to road spec (which doesn't appeal unless I am going to sell it as a restored road car) to take it to a targa which means I can't strip it out and convert to rear discs and all the other "fun" things from the Demon Tweeks catalogue. And if I do leave it in road trim then it's not that quick.
If I do want to go to the full "anything goes" build style then I am limited to sprints, hillclimbs and stage rallys and I would go there knowing that I would always be last as it would be no competition for the big boys. While you can say it's not about the winning, I can imagine it gets a bit boring driving purely in your own (slow) time zone and the temptation to spend £££££££ is always there to get quicker. Bad idea for me!
I love the idea of putting arches on it, fitting a stack dashboard, roll cage, alloy rear tank, battery location but then without anything to go to in it (aside from shows) I know I will end up selling it and having a car that has a lower value as the buyer too has nothing to use it for :( - I just can't see me and my mates going out for a cruise in it to Southend like we used to when we were in our 20's... I can hear them now "Oi, what's that old Ford grandpa)
A right dillema, I'm really finding it hard to get motivated to put it back to totally standard road trim just to sell it even if all the parts are there to do so.
The only option I have to scratch the itch is to build it for stage rallying and accept it's just for a bit of a laugh ?
I'd welcome any other thoughts :)