I once again have to turn to the collective wisdom of this place, as I am facing something I have been over thinking perhaps for quite some time. Maybe someone has faced this before and might be willing to share the knowledge.
I am trying to do convert lug bolts to lug nuts on the 206.
1) First question: How are the studs going to be retained in the hub? Since I remember clearly when I did fit a lug bolt too long it went right through the treads in the hub and was hitting against brake caliper when trying to turn the wheel. If there is no end stop, how is stud conversion even possible since there is no way to retain the stud? But it must be possible since there are so many stud kits available everywhere...
2) second question: length-wise - what should it be? the 205 gti bolt is exactly 72mm and the studs are available either 60mm or 80mm.
3) tapers. are they the same across car world or each manufacturer specifies them individually down to degrees? and is there a difference between OEM peugeot wheel bolt taper and the aftermarket standard of 60 degrees?
All and any info is very much appreciated
Thank you
Hi Antons,
I will bow to other's superior knowledge but I think what you will do by getting studs is really to replace the head of your current threaded bolt with more thread that you can put a nut on.
Therefore the new stud will screw into the hub just as the bolt does now and won't protrude any further than with the present system. It doesn't go through the back and into splines and therefore doesn't need a head to stop it pulling through ( like some brake drums). The thread length of that part of the stud wants to be the full depth of metal of the hub and no more. Screw it in tight and use some Loctite on it.
I suspect that the choice of length of the other part of the stud depends on whether you are fitting steels or alloys which have more metal thickness where the holes are. Therefore you probably want the longer ones for alloys which would make for a universal fitment. I think cone angles are pretty standard but you can check what you need with the bolts you are replacing.
Make sure that the stud length from the outer face of the hub adds up to more than the depth of the wheel hole plus the depth of the nut plus a bit more so that the full length of the nut is used when you tighten the wheel and the thread has passed completely through it.
I know why you want to change them. I've used all sorts of 'French' language on my 205 wheel bolts.
Hi Tony,
Many thanks for your reply.
It seems like the main trick here is to get studs that have a 'bulge' of some sort between hub thread and lug nut thread, because I've seen too many sets that look like the threadless portion of the stud is just the shank diameter without the thread, which will go through the hub if one continues to screw them in, like the ones on the left.
I was also advised when I called up this online shop that sold these studs that Peugeot 206 OE alloys, although their bolts have a taper (bottom right photo), for retaining purposes rely solely on the flat washer part of the bolt, in pretty much the same manner as 205 bolts, which eliminates the need for me to buy separate tapered nuts, since I am not running any steels.
The only thing left now then is to measure up the distances, for which I have been kindly offered by a very kind seller a stud and nut sample to offer it all up before ordering the full set.
Thanks Tony for your input
Anton. Remind me or talk to ed. wevee both done this. Several of the kits I've come across are grade 8 or less. And you do need a positive location for the stud. Bad installs do result in shearing the wheel off - we've both seen that too. Potentially lethal done badly.
Oh-kaay. :S
And the minimum standard for wheel fitment material is grade 10.8 then? I've been sent a sample that has positive retainment just need to check the grade.
Do you mind linking me up with a solid set you and Ed would suggest? I'll bring the sample I have in on Monday.
Very kind of you not letting me die...
Hi anton. A little more time today.... I've done this on 4 Pugs with differing model numbers and there a couple of mistakes not to be re-made - if you are interested.
Mistake 1. There were a couple of people selling very cheap studs on fleebay. This is simply the correct thread studding cut to the appropriate length. Unfrtunately it's design use to hold up air conditioning ducting so its cheap and soft. Grade 6.8 I believe. I'm sure you remember your courses on bolted joint design? Clamp force stopes the joint moving and the bolt is a spring - must stay in elastic deformation.... Suffice to say grade 6 = plastic deformation = no warning / bang / no wheel. Very very dangerous for any pedestrians present.
Mistake 2. Some of the cheap studs available have either continous thread, or a wasted bit in the middle. Either way there is no positive location for the stud. We tried all sorts of glue, deformed threads, etc etc. Everything short of welded. Bottom line is that when you start hitting 16 of them with rattle guns one or 2 will wander. You will never know if you have thread engagement in the hub. Never had any wheels come off, but pulled the threads out of a couple of 1/2 engaged hubs.
More constructively then we solved the problem in 2 ways:
Option 1 - Proven working on 2 x 205s. Take the hubs off and machine out the existing threads (which is no more elaborate than drilling the right size hole on a CNC machine). Push in Escort Studs - which are cheap, commonly avalaible, and pushed in from back (but M12 x 1.5 - also availabe as mk1 imperial stuff - avoid for tool availability to cut threads). You may also need to face off the back of the hub to give a flat surface to land on (no more glamerous than spinning it up on a lathe. From there we cut the heads off the existing wheel bolts and tapped them through on the lathe to make nuts. With the flat seat Pug wheels you must use the convex washers and they must be the right way up in my opinion.
Option 2 - Proven on a very trick 206. We used grade 12.3 allen bolts which were purchased in Basildon. We had to rethread the bolts such that they were full thread not shanked, but then we screwed them in from the back with loctite and torque applied. Again you may need to face off the the back of the hub to get a flat face to land the bolt head on. These were combined with some pre-existing trick wheel nuts (in the original M12 x 1.25) but we don't know where they came from.
Option 3 - It's worht noting that the trick 206 had (about 7 of 16 required) very nice shanked studs in it. As you would design threaded both ends with a thick bit in the middle to torque against. My guess is these were Pug Sport Challenge bits so probably no longer available and definately properly expensive if you can find them. Do you speak French? If so maybe work the phones....
Out of all of this, it begs the question - is it worth it? For me, so long as the disks are correctly installed with the grub screws it's not worth the effort to switch to studs. Yes it makes tyre changing a tiny bit easier/faster, but if you are being timed to change a tyre your day is spoiled anyhow.
Hope that's helpful.
Thinking specifically about the problem of the bolt being at the bottom of a deep hole (so you cant touch it to start it)...
it may help to know there are several funky head types available from Peugeot. Certainly theres bound to be more than I know but...
205 1.6 GTi has a bolt with a very long hex section - as hown in Antons photie. 205 1.9 GTi does not.
Some of the 306's also had a bolt that head the hex head on a stick (I kid you not). From washer face to top of the bolt was ~50mm with the hex only being 20 of it.
I guess these were probalby related to wheel style - for the very reason of reaching them on the production line.
Thanks for all this Richard.
I just checked with the seller, its a 10.9 grade stud I was sent, of the correct length (82mm total) as fitted and tested on my 206 with both 205 GTI (speedline) and 206 15'' OE alloy wheels, both worked with just the flat seat nut, and the nut was fully engaged along all of it's threads. The stud itself has a proper 'bulge' and an allen key slot in the top for separate torqing up in the hub.
I've also ordered some high temp 272 loctite that should hold until some 230degC, because one would expect the hubs to get pretty toastie at times.
With all the best engineering practices observed, I'm pretty confident this should work now