As I've been doing these CMC Friday night 12 cars for 2 and a bit years, you would have thought I'd have got the hang of this by now wouldn't you? I thought I had, but now have doubts after a conversation with another member the other day. In my defence, I am only the dumb driver, and so I usually just go with the flow and do as I'm told....
Take this example: a crew are 8 mins late in section 1 and so at TC1 they get their time card marked 8 columns to the right of their correct time column, and they are now 8 minutes late overall. This means their new correct time at TC 2 is 8 columns to the right as well. For the rest of the event, they are correct on time and so finish with n Fails and 8 mins. Correct?
But say they had made up 2 mins on section 2 (assuming that amount of make up is allowed on that section), which means that at TC2 their card is now marked 2 columns to the left of where it was marked at TC1, and so they are currently 6 mins late. They continue on time for the rest of the event and finish with n Fails and 6 mins. Correct? Or do they still finish with n Fails and 8 Mins because once you have incurred that 8 late minutes, you are stuck with them?
Taking this further, if they managed to make up 2 or more minutes on every subsequent section that allowed that amount of make up, could they get back to 0 mins and be n Fails 0 mins at the finish?
Taking it even further, can you see-saw back and forth being early, then late, then making up again, etc all around your original correct time column (assuming again that you keep to the make up rules) and still finish with whatever time you were at the last control?
I assume you can't "bank" make up time? Would this would be penalised at 2 Fails per minute early based upon your "new correct" time column? Or only based upon the original correct time column?
Lots of questions I know, but can someone who knows all this for certain please put me straight?
Mike, To keep it simple, "time, once lost cannot be regained". If you stick to that you won't go far wrong. By all means make up any lost time if you can according to the make up allowed on any given section but remember you cannot make up more time than you have lost or you will get a fail. In your example, if you made up the initial 8 minutes over a number of controls you would be back on your original minute but would still have a penalty of 8 minutes.
Hope that helps.
Okay thanks, understood. This being the case, what is the purpose of make up and what benefit does it give you?
Making up brings you closer away / ie more "to the left" of OTL. I think....
[quote=sparky_spit]Okay thanks, understood. This being the case, what is the purpose of make up and what benefit does it give you?[/quote]
Making up time has two main benefits. Firstly you get closer to your due time, and as Suze says, you then have more time before you are OTL. This is especially true when you visit petrol halts, etc, on road rallies, as you normally try to make up everything and get back on time.
Secondly, it allows crews to close up, and keeps the competitors closer together aiding marshalling and general organising.
Leading crews often stay close on time, and anyone dropping time, can make up in defined areas, keeping everything closer together.
[quote=edscott]Making up time has two main benefits. Firstly you get closer to your due time, and as Suze says, you then have more time before you are OTL.[/quote]
Okay, so say we'd lost 32 minutes up until the last section, we would get 3 fails at the penultimate control as we are OTL at that control. If we then legally made up 3 minutes in the last section we would scrape in 1 minute under our new due time, and not get any fails for it? However, our finishing result would be n fails and 32 Mins?
[quote=sparky_spit][quote=edscott]Making up time has two main benefits. Firstly you get closer to your due time, and as Suze says, you then have more time before you are OTL.[/quote]
Okay, so say we'd lost 32 minutes up until the last section, we would get 3 fails at the penultimate control as we are OTL at that control. If we then legally made up 3 minutes in the last section we would scrape in 1 minute under our new due time, and not get any fails for it? However, our finishing result would be n fails and 32 Mins?[/quote]
In theory, if you are OTL, you should make up where you can and get back on your time. Every time control you visit before OTL you will get a recorded time.
Many other factors could be considered.
If you are OTL, you could carry on and collect the Passage checks, providing you are ahead of the closing course car.
You could also opt not to take a time at a control if you are OTL. You will get a penalty the same as if you didn't visit the control, and can often therefore book in a bit earlier at the next control.
You need to check before you start an event, the definition of a finisher, which is normally to report to main time controls within OTL, so be aware which ones they are. On 12 cars it is often the finish control, so establish that at the start and be aware.
It is easily possible to get a time penalty of 32 mins if you have made up in any section.
Hope this is not muddying the waters too much!
The Scheduled Time system gives you TWO 'expected' times of arrival at a control.
1. Your SCHEDULED time of arrival is the time you should arrive at each control, if you took exactly the right time to complete every section.
2. Your DUE time of arrival is the time you should arrive at each control, based on the time you booked in at the previous control and the time allowed for that section.
So SCHEDULED time is absolute and is 'fixed' across the whole of the rally. DUE time at each control is relative and depends on what happens before you get to that control.
If you take the right amount of time on each section, your SCHEDULED and DUE times are the same.
But say you are 1 minute late at TC3; your DUE time of arrival at TC4 is now 1 minute later than your SCHEDULED time - i.e. assuming you take the time allowed for the section to TC4, you will carry that 1 minute (for being late at TC3) along with you to TC4 as well. OK so far?
That minute, lost at TC3, will always be part of your penalties. But assuming you do take exactly the time allowed between TC3 and TC4, you will not be penalised AGAIN for being a minute late at TC4. OK so far? However if you take 1 minute longer than the time allowed to get to TC4, you will be now 2 minutes behind SCHEDULED time at TC4 (1 minute carried over from TC3, plus the 1 minute dropped on TC3-4). Your actual *penalties* will be 1 minute at TC3 and 1 minute at TC4. Your DUE time at TC5, now, will be 2 minutes later than SCHEDULED time. OK still?
Obviously, because you carry forward all your lateness at each control, those individual minutes can accumulate. If you get to the point where you are 31 minutes late at a control, you are deemed OTL at that control, and the penalty for arriving OTL is the same as if you never went to that control.
If you drop a lot of time and are at risk of going OTL, you will need to get (legitimately) closer to your scheduled time. Two ways to do this:
1. By being blindingly quick on a competitive section, you may book in earlier than your DUE time - but you must NEVER book in earlier than your SCHEDULED time. You can "make up" up to 1/4 of the time allowed for a competitive section. Note though you may never make up time on a neutral section.
2. Alternatively, the drastic solution when it is all going horribly wrong is to cut a section of route (miss a TC and you can rejoin at a later control at any time on or after your SCHEDULED time). You will of course be penalised for every control (TC or PC) that you miss, but that is better than being OTL and falling irreparably behind the rally. Knowing when to cut is a fine art and comes only with experience.
How's that? I hope that helps, if not then pretend you never read any of it!!
All the best,
PS
Yes, thanks... all the replies have been very helpful and much appreciated. I sort of knew this anyway, but not the bit about being unable to use make-up to reduce your overall time penalties. I must have been away the day we did that bit.
As I said at the top, I'm just the driver. Mark's the brains of the outfit. I just do and go where I'm told. A bit like being at home...