Hi all,
For obvious reasons, I was playing with the idea of what car to buy and I have, kinda, narrowed it down to a few reasonable (read: cheapest) options and thought of getting a few more opinions in case I have missed out something that might result in a big disappointment later on.
In my opinion, worthy contender for road rallies, 12-cars and targas could hide among:
- Clio Renaultsport (any spec, 172/182/cup/trophy/standard) 172bhp, 1035kg, £700-ish
- Peugeot 206 GTI 180bhp (the 137bhp version seemed unnecessary since both are similarly priced second hand) 180bhp, 1150kg, £600-ish
- Citroen Saxo VTS (know very little about these) 120bhp, 950kg, £900-ish
- Ford Puma 1.7 (probably the cheapest among all) 125bhp, 1045kg, £300-ish
- MG ZR 1.8 VVC 160 (seems to be a very popular choice for unknown to me reasons) 160bhp, 1145kg, £400-ish
(prices based on cosmetically tatty and/or scratched examples with reasonably low mileage to be mechanically 'good enough' for a season of 12-cars, targas, sprints and what not.)
I know the answer will always 'depend on what you want it for' so there is, of course, an element of a poetic licence given to offer any reasonings in favour of one or another.
All and any views on handling, durability, weight distribution, user friendliness, electronic complexity, roll cage prices, spares prices and just about anything else are welcome.
The great thing about targas is that it is far more about the driver and navigator than the car, a decent team could (and have) won targas in nearly all of those you mention.
Personally having done targas in both standard and properly prepared cars I would look on ebay for a ready prepared road rally, enduro or targa car with suspension mods, a cage, seats, harnesses and sump guard, doesn't have to be expensive, between £1000 and £2000 will get something decent and you can drive flat out everywhere without having to worry about breaking it. And if you stay under 1400cc there is a separate class for you.
I've had some of these in various guises of road cars and competition cards - I would make the following observations:
- Clio Renaultsport - I ran a 172 as a daily driver for ~ 7years (not for sale). Typical Renault you need to stay on top of the mechanical items - if they are not perfect they are not working at all so be careful not to buy an end of life dog - very expensive on labour and very time consuming to work on. The 172 - fast. Properly fast! That said I really wouldn't want to have (another) accident in 1 - all the structure of a Coke can and no crumple zones at all. the 172's are probably better than the 182's because they have a throttle cable.
- Peugeot 206 - I ran 2 x 205s and have friend with 206. they are light (so fragile) but you need to plan to do something with the rear suspension - in standard trim it is seriously zebadee due to the short throw shocks. Istill have a very well prepped 205 road rally car (that I don't want) but whether I could persuade my rallying partner to part with his half I've no idea.
- Citroen Saxo VTS I have a C2 VTR with manual gearbox for sale - which is more or less the same thing with a different top hat I believe. My better half has been running it as a daily driver for a year or so but I drove it last night (for the 1st time in ~ 3 months) and I still love it for the short twisty stuff - a proper eager little puppy. With Pug / Citroen / PSA expect the gearbox to be fragile for all ot the MA boxes on TU engines (up to 1.6L typically). Especially fragile to wheelspin on the non Rally versions I believe.
- Ford Puma 1.7 - I've no experience but I think they are heavy
- MG ZR No experience - my guess is they are tough. Lots around because they were the car of choice for Endurance rallying.
The advice to buy a used prepped Rally car is good though. You don't need all of the safety kit to go Targa rallying, and you should always plan not use it, but the day you need a roll cage & propper seats you wont regret it - the life you save etc. I would suggest that you be careful to read the blue book vis a vis rules for the different classes - if you can multiuse a car you will probably get more out of it. Stage only cars tend to be a one trick pony and need a great deal of lifecycling on the expensive safety kit - whereas Road spec cars need the external silohette and interior trim to be standard.
Blunt but honest: I'd reconsider the budget if I were you. Upfront economies often lead into to longterm spending so I'd spend more to get something with some future in it. Rallying isn't cheap....
i had no idea you were so eloquent. you almost sound like you know what your talking about.
i do agree with everything you say though
First of all, thanks everyone for your kind responses and thanks to Nickleby4 for taking time to draft up such a thorough knowledge sharer. Your point about Peugeot's rear suspension is duly noted and will be researched. Yes, I heard how fragile the 172s are and was told driving one, even on a Targa, at full chat without a roll cage is ill-advised.
By the way, what was your friend's solution to the 206's rear suspension question? Are there off-the-shelf components for it or does it involve a bit of fabrication?
I wouldn't have thought Puma was heavy, especially taking they are 115kg lighter than a 206. Unless you meant on a power-to-weight scale, then yes, they are the bottom of the barell on this list.
Rallying isn't cheap... Racing isn't cheap... Motorsport isn't cheap... if only I had a pound for everytime I hear it. And it's not to take away from any truth in that, it is the truth and an undeniable one, but there always are necessary expenses and unnecessary ones. I wouldn't want to go full whack into buying a basic stage car for 5-10k to then not know what to do with it. I don't want the car to outpace my capabilities. I want to grow into my car and develop with it. I want the parts I change to be useful and make sense to me and to the car. And to be fair, the road rally prepped cars I've seen so far, are normally ridiculously overpriced with respect to the actual hardware installed as to reflect the time spent on it that the owner then wants to recuperate through throwing on a grand or two on the price tag, which means I end up paying someone else's profits. Unless I can earn the same or greater amount in the 3-4 weekends it takes to prep it, which I can't, I'm pretty content with doing it myself or with a friend at hand. I believe it is the most cost-efficient way of going about it, which helps, since rallying isn't cheap...
if you are contemplating an MG ZR , my one was involved in an RTA last weekend with damage to the shell. the bits from this when added to a £500 1.4 mg zr would make a competative car. be quick before the insurance co crush it
DR H. You make a good point. The definition of a prepared car does vary in my opinion. Both in that there are plenty of standard cars advertised for sale as prepared (the only modifications being added dents and set of spotlights), and in that you see a few cars on events that really shouldn't be (some barely even start).
On the other side of the coin though (assuming you are able to tell the difference) it's my opinion that a used car can be the best solution. It has the advantage of being a complete entity and ready to test on day 1, whereas a self build can be many months (and £k's) before you actually find out what you've got. Either way it's probably wise to cost out a "non-negotiable list". On mine there will always be a properly welded in cage, no compromise seats, and harnesses - and (to me) thats ~ £2K fitted!
The Pug rear suspension is another case in point. I know 3 proven fixes for it - all of which I've personally tested in anger. The fastest (but not the best nor the most expensive) was a top end set of Proflex shocks (with remote resevoirs - which I have a hunch are outlawed now for Road Rally class...?). Generally POA but I had understood that they are ~ 4 figures each.
There are no restrictions on suspension for road rally cars in the Blue Book section R18. The Endurance Road Rally Championship regulations had something about no remote reservoirs, but that was purely a championship cost-saving rule.
Not that Proflex would seem to fit into DR H's budget!
I did manage to buy some two way adjustable remote reservoir ProFlex for the rear of the 206 from eBay at a very low price. They were not very well listed and although old, ProFlex serviced them and they are as good as new units. So worth keeping a search on eBay, and you may get lucky.
Ed
As it happens, I have managed to extend my car fleet last weekend, so that it now also includes a Peugeot 206 GTI 180, which came with a new cam belt, a fresh set of tyres and some dents. The plan for it is to use it as a multi-class competition (toy) car for events like targas, autosolos, sprints, road rallies, and maybe some track days.
Thanks Richard for suggesting ProFlex. I have never heard of them before and wasn't aware they were such a prominent name out in the field. However, Tony has it right, at 4 figures per shock, it's not really something I'd be looking at fitting. I saw Avo had a nice GTX coilover set for 206s at just under 4 figures (£900). Any thoughts on those? Worth/not worth their salt? and what is the cheapest solution you know to the rear suspension question?
Ed, where can I get a sump brace/guard and a tank guard? Are you running a 206? My suspicion is based on your profile pic
With the 206, i purchased it as a prepared rally car, so tank and sump gurads were already fitted. They are fairly straighforward guards in terms of shape, I would search the motorsport parts on the internet, eBay, and maybe the British Rally Forum. They would both need to be mounted carefully as they will transfer any impact loads to the chassis, so i would enlist the assistance of an experienced rally guy with the mounting, esepcialy the sump guard.
I would be careful with coilovers, most sets are aimed at trackday/road use and are designed to lower the car between 15 and 50mm, not necessarily what you want for targas and road rallies.
Personally don't think it is possible to build a car to be effective for road rallies and trackdays/sprints, the suspension requirements are so different, so I think you will have to decide what you want to do with the car.
if you do want real multi-use out of it on a budget then standard suspension with stiffer standard height springs may work as well as anything.
Derek, you are incredibly on point there. The fact that most coilover kits are designed to lower the ride height was my main stumbling block in the idea of having a single car for all these events.
I guess the way out of it I see is to have generally stiffer-than-road springs (not full tarmac race stiffness) and single- or two-way adjustable damping coilovers with some really good ride height range in them, which I then could rise sufficiently high and set low damping for targas, and road rallies and, generally, to deal with potholes, as well as be able to wind it back down lower and increase damping to control body roll and pitch rates for solos, sprints and track days.
In my mind, it can work and is possible, I just haven't found the hardware to do it yet. All I need, is to find an adjustable coilover with a lot of thread on it that wouldn't break my bank.
A good quality set of coil overs can do both, ours (Spax) have done both WRGB and tarmac sprints and work well.
I too think you need to be careful with aftermarket shocks. I agree that if you buy the boyracer kits they are usually aimed at lowering the car. You can get around this by putting the effort into understanding the details and talking to the supplier manufacterer - which is where Matt will win out and make things work. Typically the manufacterer wont care if its 18 inches or 19 inches so it's usually all the same cost.
The one point specific to the 206 though is that the shocks are very short with a lever arm reducing the throw. Which means they work harder than a conventional upright shock. A LOT LOT LOT HARDER with a lot less surface area for cooling!! In my experience when used hard they literally steam in the wet - which means they don't work and the plastic internals melt (eg the gas bags) - which means Zebadee on a pug torsion bar set up - which is a lot harder to drive than it looks (pretty much impossible actually - recomend utubing 205 rally accidents for full details).
I can probably dig out some melted AVO's (for the front of a 205) but I'd strongly recomend smooth surface only with them. Locally you could look at Gaz - they make them in Basildon so they are handy for repeairs and refurbs. By the way - you need loose wound coil springs as well - the off the shelf chepies don't have the travel you need for anything rougher than a biliard table....